How can a good God send people to Hell

[Jan]

I have friends who cannot believe in a God who sends decent people, maybe any
people, to hell.

Any ideas of what I can say?

[Stephen]

Dear brother LT,
I can see that i have in a sense opened a can of worms. I can also see that there is a reason i do not claim to be a theologian. I have read your counsel with great interest and I thank you for the references you listed including the websites. Know that you encourage me into further study and prayer.

If i may be permitted to clarify my remark about God knowing some cool magic. I do not in any way mean to imply that God has any need to practice the art of illusion. However i am certain that his appearance to Moses and the Isrealites as a " pillar of fire" did appear to them as magic. God is all powerful and can best the efforts of even the most knowlegable magicians. His works may sometimes appear as magic but as in the case of moses staff, he devoured the pitiful attempts of man and satan to frighten the righteous. God is after all a master of the elements. He created them. I admitt it was an ill advised attempt to describe his power and majesty. I wish I could remember where it was in scripture that he is described as wrapping himself in light. Could this have been the burning bush story?

In regards to REV. 20 verse 9 Satan and his followers do indeed surround the city of God and intend to make war. I have always believed this city mentioned in chapter 20 to be the new jeruslalem. But to me the larger issue here is that this is the place final judgment takes place. I have always felt that God indeed does have a special place for satan and his prophets. But it is clear to me here that the wicked are devoured and burned up, not tortured forever and ever, as is satan and his prophets.MAL 4: 1-3

In regards to your proposal that I am a legalist, might I reaffirm that I am personally saved by the Grace of God through faith in the merits of his son Jesus the Christ! Jesus is indeed my Redeemer and my high priest in heaven.
The law of God does indeed condemn me but I trust in the merits of my lord Jesus to meet the requirements of Gods holy law. Jesus came not to nullify the law but to fulfill it! Actually even though they condemn me I love his commandments. They impart to me a reflection of his character. His commandments show me the beauty of his perfect nature and love. As David said "his law is a hedge about me". It (the law) is an example of his perfect love for us.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by "soul sleep" and suffer from a lack of knowlege on this "doctrine". All I know is that I do not believe the soul to be immortal. I believe that when I die God is in charge of my soul. Actually I believe my soul is not mine but Gods and was bought with a terrible price! I do not float around in a spiritual state like a ghost. To the dust I return. I am truly dead. ECCL. 9:5,6 JOB. 14:12,21 PS 146:4 I do not believe the lie Satan told Eve in regards to her eating of the forbidden fruit. Yes i understand that our response to temptation has eternal ramifications hence the need for us a savior to guide, redeem and strengthen!

I am well aware that i go against the common understanding of the nature of hell and death. However I also understand that one must, as a child of God, stand true to his concience. Reason tells me there is something wrong with the common understanding of hell. That understanding reflects on the very nature of the Lord I serve. It just seems inconsistent to me that my God, a God of love sees fit to torture and continue that torture into eternity. Even though he might have every right to do so. I am open to the idea however that he might have a special place of torment reserved for Satan and his prophets. I do not presume to know the mind of God. What I do claim to know is his nature with the help of his holy spirit and the example of our lord Jesus the Christ.
I also perceive that the place of hell is both referred to figuratively and literally. Lets just say that I know enough to know I am not a theologian.
In regards to your first two references I find them to be figurative in nature,The later especially in that this narrative describes
Gods will to dispense justice for his martyrs. I do not believe them to try and describe the literal state of being of the dead. Scripture often uses narrative to describe ideas or principles. There are many scriptures literal in nature that describe the state of the dead in great detail. Please note the texts listed at the end of my reply.

I do believe there is a hell just as I believe there is the heaven and new earth God promises to us. I just do not believe in hell as an eternal place of torment for anyone other than Satan.The Beast and his prophet. Hell to me is a place of final judgment. MT 13:40

Thank you Brother and I do percieive you as a brother in Christ. I hope in the same love you do and do take your writting this counsel to me indeed as an act of brotherly love. I take your counsel to heart and continue my studies with a prayerful heart and mind. Jesus is lord!
IHL Stephen
Merry Christmas to you and yours LT!


ECCL. 9:5,6
JOB. 14:12,21
DAN. 12:2
MATT.27:52
PS. 146:4
JOHN 11:11-14
1 THESS. 4:13-15
GEN. 3:17-19
I am willing to provide more textual evidence if you would like to see them.

[LT]

Stephen,

I wish to clear up a couple of things so that we can discuss this subject in peace. I do not question whether you are a believer. All who call upon the name of the Lord and surrender to Him as their Savior are saved and become brothers in Christ. I did not call you a legalist, nor intend to in anyway imply it (though I can see how you took it that way, could have been stated better by me). I pointed out that the teaching you were exposed to is legalistc. In fact your view on this topic is far from legalistic. The reference of the new city being in Rev. 21 was for clarity sake, not an "I gotcha" statement on my part.

There are several individual topics to discuss in your statement and I would like to address them one by one if you are willing, knowing others will opine from time to time as well.

These are the ones I see thus far:
1. God is a loving God, therefore He would not condemn someone to eternal punishment.
2. The existence of hell and eternal punishment.
3. Viewing certain passages as figurative.
4. Soul sleep: No conscious awareness during our absence from a body. Included in this is what happens to the body and spirit upon physical death.

I applaud you that you are taking a stand for what you believe. This is critical, and at the same time we all must be open and teachable ... and here in your response you appear to be such a person. This site is designed for open discussion with the desire for iron to sharpen iron. In the end we all grow. Regarding you not being a theologian, very few on this site are. Most of us are journeymen, people on a life long journey with Jesus seeking to grow in faith, knowledge and love.

Lastly, in Christ we walk together, on this topic we disagree. Now let us reason together to see if we both can grow as we seek the truth of God's Word together. May God's Spirit guide both of us to the truth.

(I will use a separate text box for the topics)

Lord Bless,
LT

[LT]

Stephen,

1. God is a loving God, therefore He would not condemn someone to eternal punishment.

God is love (1 Jn. 4:8). This statement is undenaible, but it also is not the only attribute by which God lives and operates. He is also righteous, holy and just. In fact there are at least 16 attributes that clearly describe God. Eight of these are understandable, to a degree, and eight are near impossible to grasp, but still true none-the-less. God does not set aside one attribute or is He guided by one more than another. These attributes simply are the characteristics of Who He is and reveal something about His mannerism and the way He functions.

Regarding love, first I take it from your writting that you do not believe all are saved (correct me if I am wrong). You believe that one must come to Jesus for salvation (Acts 4:12). If I read you correctly, your premise is that the unjust or wicked do not experience eternal punishment, but are rather destroyed.

What is the difference between stating that God, because He is love, cannot allow a person to experience eternal punishment and believeing that the same loving God could "destroy" someone completely. If love is the primary or only attribute that He operates by can one say that a loving God would be in error or acting contrary to love when He brought the flood on the earth destroying all but eight of the human race? Would a God that operates based solely on love have rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah? What about Korah's rebellion? The Israelites taking the promise land from the Cannanites? What about Ananias and Sapphira in the New Testament? These actions flow from Who He is. He is love and much more. His actions are always right and just (Deut. 32:4).

If God can do these things while being a God of love and a just God, what prevents Him from sending one to eternal punishment because of their sin?

Lord Bless,
LT

[Stephen]

Dear Lt,

I have met some wonderful people on this site and you sir are one of them. I am much encouraged by your approach to our seeming differences in our understanding of some scripture. Please know that I too wish peace and good will between us! I also see you as an educated and well spoken individual and last but not least a brother in Christ. May we always be on friendly terms! Please excuse my apparent lack in proper and good form in the art of writing and typing, as I fear I am not as educated as you are. However I suspect us to have more in common than our introduction would seem to suggest.
I am humbled and honored by your willingness to discuss with me The matters you mentioned. I am most certainly open to further discourse with you about the nature of hell and death, or for that matter any other matter you wish to discuss. Quite frankly I do not claim to have all the truth and try to be open to the better understanding of Gods word. Thank you being so willing to share with me your understanding of his word! I think you will teach me much and am eager to learn from one so concise and well structured in his thinking. Would that I could express my thoughts and logic so well as you!
Let us begin shall we?
In response to the first topic. First I think we can both agree most heartedly that God is love. Is scripture not clear about that? But I think we need to understand Gods love is of a higher order than ours.
We can scarcely comprehend Agape love.
Even his act of the flood I see as an act of mercy in that he brought his people through an awsome destruction and I understand the flood to have been necessary to preserve his people and the truth they held for posterity. God had to show the universe that he would always have a people worthy of saving and preserving.
I still maintain that the primary motivation for gods behavior is love. Even the awful things I have experienced in my life( some day if you wish I might share with you some of those things) I now see as acts of mercy and love. Even that he might have simply allowed those thing to happen to me I still trust in divine providence and the goodness of God. Actually many bad things happen to good people and because of his love we can see that they work out our best interest. Does he not punish even the righteous out of love?
It is true that I believe love to be the primary motivation of God but certainly not the only one. I most certainly agree that our father in heaven is much too large to be put in box of such limited understanding! You are also correct that i do not believe the wicked experience eternal punishment. They are destroyed, burnt up, turned to dust and forgotten. Does the word of God remember any names of I am sure many great men from the antideluvian age? Of course not. What purpose would it serve to remember a time when every thought of man was evil? Do we not approach such a time again?
God in his mercy allows us to forget that kind of wickedness. That time came to a final and screeching halt. A new age was ushered in. and so it begins again.
Back to the point again. lol
I see even Sodem and Gamorrah as an act of love or mercy. Yet again he goes to great lengths to preserve the righteous. I know i am in danger of straying again but i have to mention that I have never met a happy homosexual! I used to work with many of them and became friends with some. How anyone can live that kind of miserable lifestyle is beyond me. I have joined in with some in huge fits of crying remorse over what these poor poeple suffer in their ignorance and rebellion!
God simply, in my understanding, put these poor lost souls out of their misery! That may seem kind of harsh but what are you going to do when that kind of imorality is so pervasive? Is there again any memory of those who lived in those two citys except lot and part of his family? Is it not curious that they were consumed and destroyed like the wicked in the end times will be? Was not Sodom and Gomorrah reduced to ashes?
Suffice it to say that God has instituted many calamities and though we cannot know the mind of God, I trust in his divine providence. He knows the beginning from the end and will do whatever he sees fit to preserve his church and further his purposes on this planet and in the universe.
Even the destruction of the wicked in the final act of justice is merciful! Even this is an act of love. The reign of sin must be ended. In a way I see that a place of eternal torment does not end the sin question but rather lengthens it, Dare I say sustains it.
There is a huge difference In putting one to death and torturing them forever and ever. Even our poor excuse for a legal system recognizes that! Do we not as a society try to execute the condemned humanely?
Scripture calls the act of judgmnent God institutes on Satan and his prophets as a strange act. I believe God truly wishes even Satan would repent and become a part of his heavenly family again. We would do well to remember the high position he held in heaven. We would do well to remember how loved as an angel he was. How it must pain our father in heaven to have to do what he must to his once highest angel!
It is not so much that he cannot but rather he will not punish any man or woman eternaly. It simply is not in his nature.
I love the text you quote at the end of your well spoken point of logic! Deut. 32:4 A most beautiful text! I look forward, as we all do, to living in the actuall presence of him that rules with such perfect and merciful justice. Please forgive me for all the typos as I am certain there are many!
Thank you for listening to me and I assure you I have read your points with great interest. LT... you teach me and I appreciate your efforts! God Bless you and yours! love Stephen

[LT]

Hey Stephen,

In response to the first topic. First I think we can both agree most heartedly that God is love. Is scripture not clear about that? But I think we need to understand Gods love is of a higher order than ours. We can scarcely comprehend Agape love.
No disagreement here.

Even his act of the flood I see as an act of mercy in that he brought his people through an awsome destruction and I understand the flood to have been necessary to preserve his people and the truth they held for posterity. God had to show the universe that he would always have a people worthy of saving and preserving.
Those saved experienced His love and mercy. Those that perished, though loved, experienced His judgment (justice).

I still maintain that the primary motivation for gods behavior is love. Even the awful things I have experienced in my life( some day if you wish I might share with you some of those things) I now see as acts of mercy and love. Even that he might have simply allowed those thing to happen to me I still trust in divine providence and the goodness of God. Actually many bad things happen to good people and because of his love we can see that they work out our best interest.
You are a child of God. The world, those who do not accept Jesus are not. Though they are loved, they are not the same to Him and are dealt with differently. Your judgment (judged as saved in Christ) is unto eternal life (John 3:16), the unbeliever’s judgment (judged by their sin in which still hangs over them) is unto eternal condemnation (john 5:28-29; Mat. 23:33;Heb 6:2; Jude :7).

Does he not punish even the righteous out of love?
This is key. He disciplines the saved out of love (Heb 12), but He punishes the wicked as lawbreakers, who are still under the penalty of the Law (Rom. 2;12). Though He loves both, He treats them differently now and through eternity. Note also the wording of Rev. 22:14-15 and note its placement in Scripture. These words are after the final judgment and the new city. The permanence of the wicked is established, though they reside outside of the gates of God’s kingdom, implying in the eternal Lake of Fire, for at that point there will be only two places. They are the kingdom of God and the Lake of Fire.


Does the word of God remember any names of I am sure many great men from the antideluvian age? Of course not. What purpose would it serve to remember a time when every thought of man was evil? Do we not approach such a time again? God in his mercy allows us to forget that kind of wickedness. That time came to a final and screeching halt. A new age was ushered in. and so it begins again.
Back to the point again.
We do not have the names, but we do have the fact of the time being wicked and God brought judgment upon the earth, to all except the eight. God did not choose for us to ignore that period, for He included it in His Word.


I see even Sodem and Gamorrah as an act of love or mercy. Yet again he goes to great lengths to preserve the righteous … God simply, in my understanding, put these poor lost souls out of their misery!
To have brought destruction upon the city and its inhabitants does not necessitate the cessation of the person, but rather the end to their earthly existence. (We will discuss this later regarding what happens to the soul or spirit after death.)

That may seem kind of harsh but what are you going to do when that kind of imorality is so pervasive?
Does a loving God ever act harsh? Or does He in His righteousness and justice bring judgment upon the wicked? Does one imply that the loving thing to do would be to exterminate them and not give them more time, another option and different way? Or was the act a just act?

Is there again any memory of those who lived in those two citys except lot and part of his family? Is it not curious that they were consumed and destroyed like the wicked in the end times will be? Was not Sodom and Gomorrah reduced to ashes?
There are no names listed, but Sodom and Gomorrah are remembered. Their remembrance as cities is not based on the action of the city, but rather its inhabitants. Judgment came because of their individual sin. Abraham pleaded for the city to a point and stopped. The city was that bad off that only Lot and his family were able to be rescued.

Suffice it to say that God has instituted many calamities and though we cannot know the mind of God, I trust in his divine providence. He knows the beginning from the end and will do whatever he sees fit to preserve his church and further his purposes on this planet and in the universe. Even the destruction of the wicked in the final act of justice is merciful! Even this is an act of love. The reign of sin must be ended. In a way I see that a place of eternal torment does not end the sin question but rather lengthens it, Dare I say sustains it. There is a huge difference In putting one to death and torturing them forever and ever.
The question is not what does He do, but rather why does He do it. Food for thought, this may not fit here, but it is what comes to mind: (Purely hypothetical) Can you imagine a lost sinner who had died being raised back to life (John 5:28-29). This person is brought before God who then proclaims “I love you, but my love alone cannot save you. You rejected my Son, Who died that you may have eternal life. I still love you, but my love cannot save you, therefore because I love you I will annihilate you.” Annihilation or a place of eternal torment? Which truly shows God as primarily acting out of love? I see righteousness and justice in action in such a scenario. I see the rule of law being applied to the one who is still under the Law. This does not make me happy, but neither could God overlooking sin, if He were able to.

Even our poor excuse for a legal system recognizes that! Do we not as a society try to execute the condemned humanely?
Many states reject the death penalty and prolong the individual’s life in a place of containment and what one could call as torture, due to the loss of freedom and environment in which one lives. An environment that has one constantly wondering if they will get shanked or raped, beat up or murdered.

Scripture calls the act of judgmnent God institutes on Satan and his prophets as a strange act. I believe God truly wishes even Satan would repent and become a part of his heavenly family again. We would do well to remember the high position he held in heaven. We would do well to remember how loved as an angel he was. How it must pain our father in heaven to have to do what he must to his once highest angel!
There is no blood sacrifice available for Satan and his fallen angels. God did not provide a way back for them, even if they wanted to. They are lost forever. Other than one’s belief in God’s love, what would lead you to believe that God would want Satan back, when we see the end of all things regarding him as eternal torment with the Lake of Fire having been prepared for him?


It is not so much that he cannot but rather he will not punish any man or woman eternaly. It simply is not in his nature.
You rest all your hope in His love. His righteousness and justice will be fulfilled and the lost, apart from Jesus, have no hope. They face an eternal judgment. We both agree on that, but disagree on the method … annihilation vs. eternal existence in a place of torment. For what it is worth at this point, I believe the greatest torment for the eternally lost will be that they will have seen Him at the final judgment, know he is real and true, only to be cast aside for eternity

MT 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

MT 25:44 "They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

MT 25:45 "He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

MT 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

What is the proclamation regarding Satan?

REV 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

We will carry this as far as we can before we move on to number 2. Others are invited to join in.

Lord Bless,
LT

[Winston James Blanke]

Wrong- Read your Bible. The Final Jugement day has to come first.

[Dakota]

when I am asked this question I always say you are asking the wrong question God doesn't send anyone to hell people send themselves by rejecting Jesus.God is a loving God because he sent his only son to die plus look at all the good things he did in the bible. It is our nature to sin so that makes something like this God on one side and man on the other side to get to God we need a bridge and Jesus is that bridge. So I honestly believe God doesn't send anyone to hell. people send themselves by rejecting the gift God gave us.

[Winston James Blanke]

GOD DOES SEND SINNFUL PEOPLE TO HELL AT THE WHITE THRNE JUDGMENT. THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE. NOT HELL ETERNALLY. READ ABOUT THE WORM THAT EATS THE WORM. I DON'T WANT TO BE IN THAT WORM, DO YOU?

[Carla]

Hi Everyone,

This may be slightly off topic..but I feel it fits in here somehow...

I am reading in Romans right now, and I have come across scripture that I have a question about:
Romans 5:12-21--Adam and Christ Jesus are contrasted.

5:12-When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
13-Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not any law to break.
14-Still, everyone died--from the time of Adam to the time of Moses--even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God as Adam did. Now, Adam is a symbol, a representative of Christ, who was yet to come.

To me, this shows that death is separation from God. Many people--Unbelievers are like the 'living dead'... walking around in this life, but dead because they are separated from God. If they are separated from God in this life, then they will be separated from God eternally.

Genesis 2:16,17-But the Lord God warned him, "You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden-17-except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat it's fruit, you are sure to die."

Obviously Adam and Eve did not physically die...it is a Spiritual death...a separation from God.

So then does death simply mean being separated from God..now and forever ? ...unless they accept the free gift of Jesus of coarse....

This has been on my mind since this conversation started, I have now located the scripture to ask the question....

Thanks Carla

[Stephen]

Hi Carla,

I could not help but respond to your question as I see it as very applicable to our discussion. I think Carla your question shows a keen intelect and that you answered your own question and then drew away from it.
Dear... might I be permitted to ask you a simple question? Are Adam and Eve alive now? I think you are correct in your belief that death is the result of separation from our creator. That separation is what his plan of salvation is mending. He means to restore us to him. I contend that Adam and Eve were in a state of death when they had to leave the garden. Was not the garden where God communed with his creation, namely us!? The earth restored will be that place again.
It is when we start talking about the spirit that the issue becomes muddied. The only way I know to best explain this is to state that we do not have an immortal soul or spirit as you will. Only God is immortal. TIM 1:17. Jesus death on the cross proves this point. Just before his death did he not cry out to his father in heaven, "Father why hast thou forsaken me"!? God had to turn his face from Jesus as we know becaues Jesus became sin for our sake.
Yes I agree! To be separated from God is to be in a state of death!
God in his mercy gives us the choice as to whether that separation is to be permanent or not. Praise God!
As to the spirit, Yes we have a spirit. It is that breath of life described in GEN 2:7. Hence we become a living breathing soul. JOB 27:3
All of us die. EZEK. 18:20, and can only be immortal in the victory Jesus had over death on his ressurection. We, if we persevere, are awarded that same victory at the last trump. Actually we have that now by grace through faith in him that died for us!
I do not believe Adam and Eve wait for us in heaven. ACTS 2:29-34 They wait as we all must in the Grave. JOHN 5:28,29
Separation from God is death pure and simple Carla. It is only through the merits of our lord and savior Jesus the Christ that any of us find salvation and hope, the same hope that Adam and Eve died with!
Thank you Carla! I so enjoyed your keen observation! IHL Stephen

[Carla]

Hi Stephen,
Thank you for stopping to answer the question. Regarding your question:
Are Adam and Eve alive now? No, not physically..not their soul, but Spiritually...we don't know, and it is not up to us to decide.

You have said the following in bold:

It is when we start talking about the spirit that the issue becomes muddied. The only way I know to best explain this is to state that we do not have an immortal soul or spirit as you will. Only God is immortal. Stephen, Our Spirit and Soul are separate. Mankind has a Spirit, but we are not a Spirit, those who have the Holy Spirit are 'Spiritually Alive' (we have already agreed on this), but unbelievers are 'Spiritually dead' (we have agreed on this also).

Our Spirit is the element which allows us to have an intimate relationship with God. Whenever the word Spirit is used, it refers to the immaterial part of man including the soul.
The word soul refers not only to the immaterial part of man but also the material part. Unlike man having a 'spirit,' Man IS A SOUL. In it's most basic sense, the word 'soul' means life. However, the Bible moves beyond 'life' and into many areas. One of those areas is to man's eagerness to sin (Luke 12:26). Man is naturally evil, and his soul is tainted as a result. The life principle is removed at the time of pyhsical death (Genesis 35:18, Jeremiah 15:2). The 'soul' as with the 'spirit', is the centre of many spiritual experiences (Job 30:25, Psalm 43:5, Jeremiah 13:17). Whenever the word soul is used, it can refer to the whole person, alive or after death.

The 'soul' and the 'spirit' are similiar in the manner in which they are used in the spiritual life of the believer. They are different in their reference. The 'soul' is man's horizontal view with the world. The 'spirit' is man's vertical view with God. It is important to understand that both refer to the immaterial part of man, but only the 'spirit' refers to man's walk with God. The 'soul' refers to man's walk in the world, both material and immaterial.
(taken from God Questions Ministries).

As to the spirit, Yes we have a spirit. It is that breath of life described in GEN 2:7. Hence we become a living breathing soul. JOB 27:3

My point is, that we are eternal beings....John 5:28 and 29
Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Stephen, death is separation from God, but it is separation in the sense of 'Eternal---now AND forever----Separation!

What matters is that people will rise either to life or death, regardless we are eternal beings.
Matthew 25:26
And they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life.

Our Souls and Spirits can be divided. Hebrews 4:12.
For the word of God is alive and powerful, It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.

Anyhow, I am enjoying the conversation between you guys....carry on.

ps--Where there is anything which needs to be corrected in my interpretaion..please correct it. The Lord is working on me to teach me to be more teachable.

Blessings, Carla

[Stephen]

Dear sister,
I do most emphatically agree with you that the spirit of God makes it possible for us to be intimate with God. In fact if I understand the plan of salvation, I see no other way. Indeed we must become new creatures in Christ. I do not believe that the newness includes immortality. We do recieve immortality when Jesus returns for us.1 COR 15:50-57
The only thing eternal about us now is the spirit of God that chooses our corruptible bodys to be its holy temple. It is there to convict us and to sanctify us, not make us immortal. That spirit is God's not mine. Neither is his immortality until i am glorified. It is then that I become a spirit creature.with a new body uncorrupted.
Are we born with the holy spirit in us? Like Adam and because of him we all die. Many great men of God have died with the obvious indwelling of the holy spirit. That indwelling as marvelous as it is does not make us immortal. We trust with the help of his spirit to believe his promise that when he comes for us we will be.
Furthermore I believe God when he told Adam he would die if he disobeyed him. Was it not sin that caused the separation from him and his creator? To further clarify, death is the result of sin that causes separation from our creator.
Carla.. I see HEB 4:12 as you do. I respectfuly submit that my soul and the holy spirit are two different things. The word of God is able to convict my soul through the influence of the holy spirit.
On a key point here I stand corrected. I stated that we have a spirit and that spirit is the breath of life that is described in GEN 2:7. That reads false. A better way to put that is, as Christians we have a spirit. As humans we have the breath of life that makes us a living, breathing soul.
For now I present this list of questions I found on a website I go to often. I hope and pray this helps to explain what I believe to be true. I often go to this website to study. Please note: amazingfacts.org
Thank you Carla for your observations. In Christian love You teach me!
LT?...If you would be so kind as to permit me some more time to respond to your observations. You as well present me with much food for thought and prayer!
God bless you all! Stephen

I feel the need to express that this first point about the comma treads on a rather slippery slope. But I do believe there is enough evidence in scripture that we can go around the point made about the comma. We would have to go back to the original greek or aramaic to see what the original was.


1. Didn't the thief on the cross go to paradise with Christ the day He died? (Luke 23:43 )
No. In fact, on Sunday morning Jesus said to Mary, "I am not yet ascended to my Father." John 20:17. This shows that Christ did not go to heaven at death. Also note that the punctuation of the Bible is not inspired, but was added by men. The comma in Luke 23:43 should be placed after the words "to day" rather than before, so the passage should read, "Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise." Or, "I'm telling you today--when it seems that I can save no one, when I myself am being crucified as a criminal--I give you the assurance today that you will be with me in paradise." Christ's kingdom is set up at His second coming (Matthew 25:31), and all the righteous of all ages will enter it at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) and not at death.
2. Doesn't the Bible speak of the "undying," "immortal" soul? (1 Timothy 1:17 )
No, the undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible. The word "immortal" is found only once in the Bible, and it is in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).
3. At death the body returns to dust and the spirit (or breath) returns to God. But where does the soul go? (Ecclesiastes 12:7 )
It goes nowhere. Instead, it simply ceases to exist. Two things must be combined to make a soul: body and breath. When the breath departs, the soul ceases to exist because it is a combination of two things. When you turn off a light, where does the light go? It doesn't go anywhere. It just ceases to exist. Two things must combine to make a light: a bulb and electricity. Without the combination, a light is impossible. So with the soul; unless body and breath are combined, there can be no soul. There is no such thing as a disembodied soul.
4. Does the word "soul" ever mean anything other than a living being? (Psalms 139:14 )
Yes, it may mean also (1) life itself, or (2) the mind, or intellect. No matter which meaning is intended, the soul is still a combination of two things (body and breath), and it ceases to exist at death.
5. Can you explain John 11:26, which says, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"? (John 11:26 )
This refers not to the first death, which all people die (Hebrews 9:27), but to the second death, which only the wicked die and from which there is no resurrection (Revelation 2:11; 21:8).
6. Matthew 10:28 says, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul." Doesn't this prove that the soul is undying? (Matthew 10:28 )
No, it proves the opposite. The last half of the same verse proves that souls do die. It says, "But rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." The word "soul" here means life and refers to eternal life, which is a gift (Romans 6:23) that will be given to the righteous at the last day (John 6:54). No one can take away the eternal life that God bestows. (See also Luke 12:4, 5.)
7. Doesn't 1 Peter 4:6 say the gospel was preached to dead people? (1 Peter 4:6 )
No, it says the gospel "was" preached to those who "are" dead. They are dead now, but the gospel "was" preached to them while they were yet living.
8. What about the souls crying out from under the altar in Revelation 6:9, 10? Doesn't this show that souls do not die? (Revelation 6:9 )
No. This cry was figurative, as was the cry of Abel's blood (Genesis 4:10). The word "soul" here means people (or living beings) who had been slain for their faith. Surely no one believes that souls who die literally lie under the altar, nor do people believe that the righteous beg God to punish their enemies. Rather, the righteous beg for mercy for their enemies, as Christ did on the cross (Luke 23:34).
9. Doesn't the Bible say Christ went and preached to lost souls in hell between His crucifixion and resurrection? (1 Peter 3:18 )
No, the Bible passage in question is 1 Peter 3:18-20. The preaching was done "by the Spirit" (verse 18) in Noah's day--to people who were then living (verses 19, 20). The "spirits in prison" refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. (See Psalms 142:7; Isaiah 42:6, 7; 61:1; and Luke 4:18.)