Calvanism. How do I tell if a Christian church is teaching Calvanism? and should I not attend it? What is the biggest problem with Calvanism?

[Paige Robertson]

I have alot of questions and would just like my friends here to inform me more about "Calvanism". I had a few of my friends at church tell me to not try to attend this church or that church because they "push calvanism". Please tell me more about Calvanism? I dont want to learn anything against the Word of God.

[Forgiven_Son_of_Adam]

Brother Ron,

What may be fruitless to you may be a relief to some others.

We are told to find the answers and seek the counsel of other Christians. These theories are an attempt to understand the concepts of the Bible. And, as Christians, theology IS our job; it is part-and-parcel of "improving our relationship with the Author and Finisher of our faith." May I gently remind you of the following: We are to love Him with our minds as well, and "theology" comes from "theos" (god, which we have Christianized to "God") and "ologia" (the study of).

In Christ,
Thomas

[Ron Payne]

Yes Thomas! The Bible even goes further to say: “Search the Scriptures ; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” (John 5:39)
Plus, all of us can quote: Acts 17:11 “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so”.

But while we are here to learn from each other, there are also warnings: “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.”(1Ti 1:4 )
But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. (1Ti 4:7)

Because none of us can say with full assurance, “I hold the truth” we have to be aware of The platform on which we say it. That is why, in my letter, I started with “This is a fruitless discussion for Theologians and not Christians.”

First reason. There are hundreds of Christians watching, who have their own version of the subject and we will find each one of us, doing exactly what we were warned about “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying.”

Second reason. In this arena there are some “Babes in Christ” who reading what is being said, will become more confused than all of us. – Perhaps this is why there is so much divergence on this subject, in that we ourselves, may have fallen prey to “old wives fables” when we, were still babes?

Until we are thoroughly convinced, that what we are saying is the very truth of God, let us hold our tongues and “exercise ourselves rather unto godliness.”
Because of the two reasons given above, I had hoped this discussion would have been left “For the Boardroom.” While we rather lift others up and point each other to the Cross.

Your brother in Christ.
Ron

[Forgiven_Son_of_Adam]

Brother Ron,

This is not just something that was pulled up in a distant ivory tower for the sake of a theoretical discussion. A sister here asked for help and each, who felt called to give, gave what they had. Like it or not, the Christian life is filled with two things: theology and hermeneutics. This is, as the saying goes, where the rubber meets the road. Grappling with these issues is not just "for the boardroom only," it is what one encounters while trying to live for Christ. A "boardroom" mentality also encourages a feeling of "you're not one of us yet" among the babes. Besides, how do we learn? We ask questions.

And the vast majority of those who have commented never said that the Calvinists or the Arminians were/are not Christians. There were "no fables or endless genealogies" presented as facts. We were asked, by a member of our own company, about what we are currently discussing. And we, in fact, insisted on the importance of Christian unity and did point people to the Cross, as I recall.

This debate, and others like it, is part of the Christian life. Do you not remember the Jerusalem Council? We will have disagreements over minor issues. These issues need to be discussed among the brethren (and the sistren). We cannot "just hold our tongues" when we are asked such questions. This, too, is for education and edification. We are doing our best with what we have. Remember, the bad servant was the one who hid his single talent. Such is the case here. If we are asked for guidance, we should at least try to help the one who is asking.

Your Brother,
Thomas

[Brian B.]

Agreed Ron. Amen.

[Forgiven_Son_of_Adam]

Pastor Art,

I would love to hear you speak in person! Your delivery and style here are fantastic. They must be even better "live." Your knowledge of history is quite impressive as well. Now, I may not always agree with you, but I would always be fed!

Your Brother,
Thomas

[Phabs]

Pastor Art

I'm a little upset at your post I think a lot of it is uncalled for, If you want to refute Calvinism, it's best to do it with the word of God, not by those who misuse it. We cannot judge a belief system by its abuses.

John Calvin was not a perfect man, I don't think neither he nor those who agree in theology with him ever made such a claim. In my opinion, he was a murderer (see servetus), but as far as TULIP he indeed got it right.

John 3:16 is the tip of the iceberg, not only does it not say the world shall not perish but have eternal life. It also does not say how one comes into believing. It's God who brings one to believe. John 3:16 is a double-edged sword, for those who will believe it is a cause of rejoicing but for those who will not believe it is condemnation
Now
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
It’s God who brings a person into belief.


Also "The WORLD" does not always refer to the whole world and all who inhabits

Staying in the book of John, Chapter 15 uses the word world to refer to, a specific group (unbelievers)

If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
Now did every single person in the world hate Christ, every last person.

read 2:Cor 5: 16-21 you can see the use of "world" in verse 19 refers to believers specifically. Surround by the context of the passage it can only refer to those who are in Christ.




John 17 the very word of Christ when He prayed for the disciples before making atonement

"9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours"
Calvinists do not believe that one is elected because God respects him/her, election is by His counsel for His sovereign purpose. Unconditional election partly deals with that.

As far the Billy Graham comment, if any Calvinist so told you, then he/she is wrong. That is not what the bible teaches, so it is not what Calvinism teaches, an ill-informed Cal does not represent the whole. The parable of the Sower is what illustrates that actually, the parable does not say that one can lose salvation, but that it is our job to sow seeds everywhere without judgment as to the state or condition of the field, it's God who makes the seed grow. The Parable of the Sower does not say one can lose salvation.


There is such a thing as unbiblical Calvinism, in my opinion. Hyper-Calvinism is unbiblical; they are our Christian brothers and sister who are extreme in their beliefs. I don't want to misrepresent them, but Hyper-Calvinism and Calvinism are different school of thoughts.


Whatever your beliefs about these things may be please remember there's 500 some years (that we know of , maybe even more) years of discussions and debates with faithful Christians on both sides, please don’t cast a shadow on them with the evil deeds of men with evil intents.


BTW many Calvinists are Calvinist because they are first and foremost bible believing Christians.

In Christ with love

[Ron Payne]

Phabs surprises me.... Phabs one thing certain is that you have gone through a lot of trouble and personal study in an attempt to place your point of view. Many of your points need to be digested and reveal that you have put a lot of thought into it. Well done!

But now, having once again read all the replies, with all the differing opinions and beliefs, to confirm what I said earlier, I can only come to the conclusion that the subject is simply creating more confusion.
To continue in this vein, can lead to a road no one intended to take. - While I have not harboured any "luggage" that was brought to this platform or take umbrage or offense - I'm too long in the tooth and old in the faith for that - But I shall be a silent observer and watch with interest, what will really be accomplished at the end. I can stand the heat in any kitchen, but as a wise accomplished fireman, will rather retire before there is too much water damage. - Ron

[Paige Robertson]

Hi Phabs!
Wow! U r very knowledgable! I appreciate all your info! My goodness, girl!
u got it goin on!
praise God!!!!!!! and praise our God for all the wonderful people who have respondedto my concern! I can tell that this is a real issue that alot of people have. The views on this are soo different and yet soo close.
i end up soo full at the end of these comments that I feel as if I am going to explode!
I have a question now, r u a calvinist then or not? I guess Im confused. Let me know...
Thanks!

[Phabs]

Hi Paige

I just saw your question.
Didn't mean to confuse you, I'm not quick to identify myself as a Calvinist for a couple of reasons. I believe he's a great theologian, from what I've read from him, but I simply don't know enough about him to identify myself with him nor do i agree with everything he believed. For example he believed in infant baptism , not for salvation but as a form of convenant, I don't believe in that, I believe in infant dedication and believer's baptism, very minor things. He has library upon library of work, many are free online if you want to check his work.

I'm a Calvinist as far as the Doctrine of Grace (the 5 TULIP points) so i guess yes...

Sorry for the long answer to a yes or no question

[Paige Robertson]

Well thank you Phabs.
I appreciate you and your help. I really was confused and I was just concerned. I have been a christian for 5 years and just barely heard of calvanism last year or so. People were telling me how bad it was and how Calvin has lead people astray by twisting doctrin around. I just was shocked aboutall this . Im very saddened that people do this to one another. I was peaceful as a christian. Loving and accepting and walking in His love. then I started hearing all this "stuff" about this theolgian,that doctrine,this doctrine,dont go here,dont go there, dont think this,dont think that, and I just got soo sad and frustated. We are all the body of Christ. Lets all work together in unity like God called us to do. You know? Do you agree?

[Phabs]

I agree, I attend an officially non-Calvinist, or at least not a 5-pointer church, although a lot of us hold to Calvinist theology. so it does not bother me. Love trumps good theology any day.
Paige, I will not be quick to say that it's a bad thing that you are not peaceful as a Christian. Yes, we have the peace of Christ and that is a great thing, we can always rely on that, that peace has it's purpose, I don't think it applies here. If you've been troubled, sadden, frustrated to the point of asking questions and doing research, that is a great thing ;-), it sounds horrible, but I'm happy for you, sorry .

I read an author who said that he didn't know how to differentiate between the God of Calvinism and the devil.People say such thing about Calvinism because it offends their personal sense of what justice is, of what love is, of who GOD is.

really long story short, we should always be charitable to one another, but say we both read the same thing, and come to different opposing interpretation, then we both can't be right, either one of us is wrong, the other right or we're both wrong. The point is why do you believe what you believe? does the text teach it or is it your own supposition? If you're troubled about what you believe, as bad as i feel for saying it, I'm glad. My hope is that you don't stay troubled, that comes with a lot of prayer and a lot of study. right now my trouble is Galatians 3:19-20, I have no idea what Paul is saying :-(

[Scribe D'Nucov]

Pastor Art, I'll do my research, but i had read in one theological reference that Arminius and Calvin had a debate. Perhaps is was a disciple of Calvin who debated his friend Arminius.

I would think tho, that it's a tiny bit arrogant to call Luther a babe Christian. The man was not as versed as a person may become today. But, he did translate the entire Bible, from the original languages, into German. He did stand firm for the Gospel, against religious tyranny, to a degree we have rarely seen since.

His understanding of the condemnation of "Jews"in the NT was mis-interpreted (Jewish religious leaders who rejected and condemned Christ) , because he was reading the term into his common understanding of his day and was taking Vatican teachings about the Jewish people at face value without considering the whole of scripture. ie. a Jewish person is NOT the same as the "Jews" who Jesus condemned (for he himself was Jewish).

But, we owe so much to Luther's faith, that has been so rarely seen in believers today - really, "babe Christian"?

I also agree with Phabs: we can all find something to reject a belief system by, if we look far enough to someone who claimed to follow it. There were just as many from the Anglican church, in the days of slavery in America, who tried to justify their wretched system of slavery - without relying on Calvin.

Our call, for all of us, is to follow Jesus. Not a man-made system. The system may serve to understand the Bible and it may aid in our exploration. But, ultimately we must follow Christ and be accountable for that alone.