Calvanism. How do I tell if a Christian church is teaching Calvanism? and should I not attend it? What is the biggest problem with Calvanism?

[Paige Robertson]

I have alot of questions and would just like my friends here to inform me more about "Calvanism". I had a few of my friends at church tell me to not try to attend this church or that church because they "push calvanism". Please tell me more about Calvanism? I dont want to learn anything against the Word of God.

[Scribe D'Nucov]

Calvanism and Arminianism are not so far apart as many would like to believe. The two men were friends and both were passionate for Christ. Many people who attend Arminian churches are semi-Calvanists. Many who attend Calvanist churches also hold to some Arminian thoughts.

The problem, in my opinion, is not with what they affirm, but what they deny. I look at the issue as looking at the Bible with one eye closed. The Calvanist has his left eye closed and the Arminian has his right eye closed.

I like to look at the Bible with both eyes open. I read what it says, I learn to understand it and do it. Some things may seem like conflicts, but when I learn more, I find they are not.

Blessings,

Scribe

[Bob B]

I agree with you Scribe. that this issue between calvanism and arminianism doesn't have to separate us as Christians. In my 33 years of being a Christian I have been envolved with churches that held to both views. I am mostly calvanistic now, but not bullheaded about it. I do believe that That people can go overboard with each camp. I believe that the reformed church is to calvanistic and the Nazerines are to Arminianistic. We have to live our lives by conviction if we are to ever going to be useful to the Lord. I will argue my veiw because it is my conviction, but I will not allow my convictions to cause me to be unloving or unkind to any one. We need to be fully devoted followers of Christ, that is the main thing.

[Phabs]

Hi Paige
I don't ussually post here, I get the devotions, so I'm not sure what the typical poster here believes.
in anycase, a lot of people have reservations about Calvinism, and it's understandable. I would not advise you to stay away, I would advise you as with everything else to submit it to the test of the holy scripture.

Calvinists basically hold to 5 major points, known by the acrostic TULIP
T- Total depravity, which basically means that man is depraved, dead and does not seek nor can he seek God

U- is for unconditional election, that is to say, God chooses not based on what one has done but by His sovereign purpose and will, a person being saved has everything to do with God and nothing to do with the person.

L- is for Limited Atonement, perhaps the most difficult to accept, it means that the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross is sufficient. As such, everyone for whom He made atonement will be saved. Now as Revelation tells us, not all will be saved, So Christ made sacrifice for those whom the Father has given Him, the elect.

I- Irrestible Grace- another hard one, is that God will extend His grace to His elect and He will save them, His grace is so abounding that it is indeed irresistible

P- Perseverance or Preservation of the Saints, those that God saves, He will preserve, no harm will befall them. Those who are saved now, will be saved. He will accomplish everything He starts

hope that helps! Again submit everything to the test of scripture
In Christ With Love

[Stew]

Paige,

In general, it is awkward to say "I'm a Lutheran" or "I'm a Calvinist" since it places John Calvin and Martin Luther in a "higher position" that the baseline Christianity that we seek. Scribe provides a good reflection on keeping both eyes open.

For reference, here are the FIVE points of Calvinism:

Total depravity

The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures.

Unconditional election

The doctrine of unconditional election asserts that God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone.


Limited atonement

The doctrine of limited atonement is the teaching that Jesus' substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. Calvinists view the atonement as a penal substitution (that is, Jesus was punished in the place of sinners), it would be unjust for God to pay the penalty for some people's sins and then still condemn them for those sins, all those whose sins were atoned for must necessarily be saved.

This is getting very specific… Since in this scheme God knows precisely who the elect are and since only the elect will be saved, there is no requirement that Christ atone for sins in general, only for those of the elect.

Irresistible grace

This doctrine asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. Thus, when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.

Perseverance of the saints

Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints is also known as "eternal security." The word saints is used in the Biblical sense to refer to all who are set apart by God, not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven (see Saint). The doctrine asserts that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.

[Jasgang]

Paige
Bless your hungry heart. Jesus said, "Blessed is he/she that hungereth after righteousnes, for he/she shall be filled." I agree somewhat with Scribe D'Nucov in that we not only must agree with certain things but we also must stand against others. Too many today don't mind agreeing with something only to disagree with it by not standing against the counter to that. Do yourself a favor and just stay away from the "isms." I don't really care what Joseph Smith, James Arminian, John Calvin, or anyone else, for that matter, says. I go to my faithful KJV Bible and listen to what God says.
It is false doctrine that says that we serve a God that just produced lives for the sake of wasting them. God does not waste one thing. God did not create some lives for heaven and some for hell. Hell is reserve for the devil and his servants. To believe in predestination in that way is to believe that God created servants for the devil. God Predestined that every person become a child of God, but was gracious in that it is our choice to or not to. Predestination of that form just puts John 3:16 in the shredder, for there cannot be predestination of that type and also "whosoever will."
2 Corinthians 3, especially 17, gives us powerful insight as to what happened only Calvary's Cross in six hours one Friday. "Now the Lord is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY." It is liberal-minded to think and believe that we can't think for ourselves, make any decisions, choose our eternal destiny by, and in whom we will serve. The spilled blood of Christ on the cross, His death, burial, and, PRAISE GOD!, HIS RESURRECTION, THAT IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.
The "isms" create the confusion. God is not the author of confusion. Those who allow the devil to use them in this matter only further complicate things for those who are searching by the leading of the Holy Spirit of God for His purpose in their lives, will some day give an account for their actions. Meanwhile, go to the real doctrine, the Holy Bible, God's Word, and pray for discernment of His will and way for your life.
Paige it is really not as complicated as many "professing" theologians make it out to be. God has made it really simple. Just seek Him with all your heart and He will be found of you. Don't just know the Word, live and enjoy it! Thank you for your thirst for the truth! It is refreshing.
My own church site is www.living-faithchristianchurch.org. There you can email me and find many helpful aids for your journey through life.

[Paige Robertson]

Hello,
Wow! Thank you for the info. You sure have studied well. I agree with alot of what you say, but I was just interested in knowing more about what was Calvinism and what exactly they believe in and why. I have to read all these responses from such loving and helpful people over and over a few times to completely understand and compare the differences.
I cant belive how awesome it is to get all this info from you and others!!!i wasnt expecting such response! I think its a blessing that u all take such time to help me.
I want to enjoy my walk with God like I did when I came to the Lord. I think I was more happier then and a few years later in my walk until I started hearing all these other beliefs about what the bible says and what it doent say. I got concerned, yet confused. So I want the truth, and I dont want to be mislead, but I also want to get back to enjoying my personal relationship with Christ. A very personal one. I, being saved now from the pit of hell, should enjoy my freedom in Him. For "those who are free, are free indeed". Am I being clear? I hope. I guess Im thirsting for knowledge.
God Bless you and your ministry!! I will definately go to your site. Where is your church? I think there is one out here in Utah too. I think they had asked me to paint rooms in thier childrens ministry but I had to tell them I was backed up with work for a few months.
Paige

[Lynnie]

Good one Jasgang I like that..... all the isms are bad news and even to say I am of Paul or you are of Apollos. incorrect We are all one in Christ. He is the only way. Amen I mean Human secularism and Intelectualism and evolutionism blah blah blah ... I like good ole deny yourself and take your cross. God is no respecter of persons and if someone is concerned with that religion or some other way of teaching, lead that person in particular yourself with scripture. If they reject it that is all you can do then just follow after thier unbeliefism.

[Craig]

The biggest problem with Calvinism is that they believe God chooses some people for heaven and the rest for hell. In other words, this makes God a respecter of persons. I have friends who believe in Calvinism and they say that witnessing to the "lost" is a waste of time. That if a person is predestined for eternal damnation, then preaching Christ to him/her will not make any difference. This is a very dangerous belief.

[Bob F]

You might consider going to the source. Read Calvin's Institutes and compare what you find in its own context with what the Bible texts say in their own context. Then you can make a truly informed decision. Calvin's Institutes are readily available in many theological libraries. I think the complete title is Institutes of the Christian Church. Many of Calvin's writings are likely available on line. He died long before copyright laws were invented and his works are still studied in many schools.

John Calvin was a fully committed Christian who tried to accurately teach what the Scriptures say to people in his culture several centuries ago. His writings are well worth reading, especially when you consider the context. We can all learn a lot from such men, whether or not we agree with everything they said or wrote. I usually learn something quite valuable from just about everyone who genuinely seeks to follow Jesus in keeping with the Scriptures. Have a wonderful day. Blessings to all.

[melissa]

http://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html

Those are two articles that might help you understand. After studying this topic, I am a 4-point Calvinist. There are 5 points, but I don't see Limited atonement as completely correct. I have attended a church where the pastor was a 5-point Calvinist. I really enjoyed the church and I learned a ton while I attended there. I moved and had to find a new church in another state.

Just my thoughts. Please let me know if you have questions.

melissa

[Greg, TheNET Coordinator]

Paige, I would consider myself a 5-point Calvinist because I came to that conclusion after considering the whole of Scripture. I didn't say, "Oh, I think I'll be a Calvinist" and then go find out what Calvinists believe. Even though I think that theological position is most accurate I am not going to argue with or break fellowship with another believer who thinks differently. In other words, I'm not going to die for it. I havea feeling that when we get to heaven God is going to show us how wrong we all were about a lot of issues we were so certain of here. I really like what Scribe wrote above. There are weaknesses in every theological position.

There are a lot of things in the Bible that I don't pretend to understand; the Trinity, the sovereignty of God vs. the responsibility of man, being just two examples. These, in our fallen human wisdom, remain irreconcilable and thus, paradoxical; two things that can't possible be true and yet are, because that is what the Bible teaches and upholds both.

The Bible is very clear on the topic of election and predestination and yet at the same time it tells us that we have real choices to make and God is going to hold us accountable for those choices. We serve a mysterious, wonderous God.

I wonder if some of our concerns about election and predestination could be solved in the fact that God inhabits both time and eternity, while we humans on earth only live within the constraints of time (time is something God created and he exists outside of it). What we know as past, present and future are all happening at the same "time" for God and he can "fast forward" or "rewind" history and the future at will (to put it in limited human terms). That is why he calls himself "I AM". Everything is in present tense to him.

How do I live out my Calvinism? "Pray like everything depends on God... Work like everything depends on you."

[Paige Robertson]

Hello Wendy!
Thanks for the wisdom on Calvanism!!! I respect you and what you believe. U r incredible.
However, Im still confused, sorry. Between what you and Jasgang are explaining. I dont mean to cause any problems, I guess I am just not understanding correctly. Sorry, Im slow.
This whole clavanism has really thrown me for a loop in the fact that I thought the bible is the word of God and it pretty much ends there. When I became a Christian, I was soo on fire for the Lord, and that I had someone who saved me "out of a slimy pit", the "mirey clay, that was all powerful,all knowing,a wonderful counselor, guide, and most of all someone that unconditionally loves me. I dont understand where all this other stuff came from. I wish that we all just kept it simple. I think for baby christians its very difficult on them to understand or get involved in all these other views, and opinions. Im not really a baby christian anymore, and I believe Im in the "meat" stage instead of the "milk" stage and I love to hear anything that would benefit my walk with the Lord. I dont want to be misled or get caught up in anything that really upsets the Lord and defies him, but sometimes Im saddened that there is all this other "stuff" out there. I never heard of Calvanism and was concerned, but Im left dazed and confused which takes the joy out of my walk with God, and the freedom He has given me. I want to know the truth,and do what pleases God so thats why I am craving more guidance, but sometimes Im grieved that it can get soo complicated at times. At least for me.
Who is John Calvin anyway and why was he soo reknown?
Paige