Division within the Body of Christ - PLEASE READ

[Jonathan McLatchie]

Dear all,

I feel the Lord has laid it upon my heart to bring forward this message, which I now share. I quote from Titus 3:9-11 (NIV):-

“But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

It seems to me that over recent days, people in general on this site have been getting involved in the foolish and unprofitable arguments of which Paul warns. Please do not misunderstand me – I am all up for objective discussions, constructive study and critical examination of different interpretations of difficult passages. But I feel many of them here are starting to evolve into quarrels over “pet doctrines” which are secondary in nature and do not bear any real reflection on maturity as a Christian or on the gospel message and salvation. “Petty quarrels” lead to foolishness, but honest and objective discussion leads to wisdom.

Niels Bohr once said in regard to another field “If you think you are understanding quantum physics, you are not understanding quantum physics”, and I think the same is true of Scripture. Granted there are some doctrines which are abundantly clear and which are non-negotiable, but there are other doctrines which really are not worth causing division over. None of us have all the answers – and if one thinks he does then he is deceiving himself, for if we had all the answers we would live whole-heartedly for Christ, which none of us do. In the words of Romans 3:11, “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.” If we claim to be living our entire lives for God then we would have to be without sin, and the Bible makes it very clear that if we claim to be without sin then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8).

People should understand that one of the purposes of the Body of Christ – and indeed this social network – is to seek to serve one another. Instead of sharing together in fellowship and worship, it seems that more and more we are spending time in selfish indulgence, arguing and disputing. If you read 1 Corinthians 1:10-17, you will find further instruction in this respect:-

“I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.”

Here, Paul rebukes the early Corinthian church for their divisions based on loyalties to particular figures. But these divisions always ended in arguments, and the believers were divided by it. This also had profound and far-reaching consequences in other important areas. For instance, those who were wealthy would keep what was theirs to themselves, eating their food before the poorest members showed. This was a complete turn of events from the first Christians in Jerusalem depicted in Acts 2:44.

It seems to me that, as was the case here, we are continuing to be walking in the flesh rather than in the Spirit and we are following our own wills rather than that of the Lord’s.

I refer you to the rest of 1 Corinthians 3, which is of relevance here:-
“Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarrelling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labour. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"; and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile." So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.”

I fear we as the Church – speaking collectively – are beginning to walk more and more according to the fleshly nature rather than that of the Spirit and we are following our own wills and desires rather than that of God’s.

It is my contention that division – where not necessary – is among the first symptoms of spiritual sickness.

As the body of Christ, we must unify the church under one banner - a state where they will be prepared to stand on the authority of the Word of God, whilst prayerfully seeking God's will. Then and only then can there be revival - for how are we to win the spiritual war when there is fighting, bickering, squabbling and throwing of toys out of prams among ourselves? We are on the same team, are we not?

Let there be REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What are people’s thoughts on this?

God bless,

Jonathan

[Julia - Woman's Group Leader]

J, we estimate that 3-5% of the members check in a couple times a week.

[christelle]

Wow..It just really saddens me that it has gotten this big.

I do have to respectfully disagree with you Jonathan. If we were arguing which denomination were right or any other silly little thing....

But the Bible warns against false prophets...and no one else has said this that I have read, but I will say it, I'm watching both the religious sector and the world (politic sector) and sometimes it is revelations type scary. I know every generation thinks theirs may be the end times...so maybe I'm just overworrying.

Many people Love Todd Bently, but many others of us believe him to be a false prophet. As christians if we truly believe satan has put a "wolf in sheeps clothing" among our brethern, we have a responsibilty to try to warn our brethern lest they be led astray.

That said, we still need to be respectful and loving.

[Scribe D'Nucov]

Cristelle, worry not for the end times. Rejoice and walk in the spirit. We may see him soon.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ (commonly known as "the revelations") is not a book meant to scare you. It is a book meant to arouse your confidence in God. When you see these things taking place, look up! For your redemption is drawing near. Be bold, be strong. Stand firm in THE FAITH. Not the guess, not the imagination, not the world's anxiety, not the political system, not the shelters of human wisdom or the caves of the earth.

Rest in Christ and stand firm in THE FAITH. Be rock solid in your trust in God. He told us these times are coming. The only thing you have to lose are the temporal things.

False prophets abound, as they have for centuries. Stand in truth. Speak truth. Be a prophet of the truth of life in Christ. Be not against the false prophets, but rather be FOR CHRIST. Walk in his spirit.

Blessings and peace in Christ. Whether we live or die, let's live for Christ!

[Phabs]

Jonathan

I must disagree with you and everyone else who agree with you.

Let's not forget that Titus is one entire letter and it did not begin with chapter three, verse nine.
Go back to chapter two, Paul gives Titus a list of things that he must teach,( go back to chapter one if you must) but in chapter two, Paul in verse one tells Titus
"1But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine."

After giving him all the things he must teach he ends the chapter by saying
"15These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority Let no one disregard you. "

My point is let's not call evil good and good evil for the sake of unifying under one banner. We are already under one banner, that of "one Lord, one faith and one baptism
let's not create false unity, there are certain things that are not profitable and we are told to keep our beliefs about these things to ourselves not to cause someone to stumble, these are trivial matters, like should a Christian drink or not, I know what I believe and why but unless you were chastising me, I'll keep it to myself.

I would never engage in a debate about whether God loves Capricorns more than others (of course He does ;-)) but this is a matter of faith, a matter of people being led astray, Christ said that it will be so bad in the last days that Satan will even try to lead the elects astray if that were possible, praise God it's not, but this is not foolishness, it's whether the hand of God is working to bring his Children into His fold or giving the lost into their depravity. not foolishness

I would agree with you and all you say it must be done in love, that means even though we disagree, I feel no different about you, I will still pray for you and would still break bread with you.
Love never fails/ends, let's all remember that.

[Scribe D'Nucov]

Hey Phabs, I hear what you are saying. You want to contend earnestly for the faith. That is good, it's right and true.

The thing we have to be careful is that we are contending FOR the faith. Many times, people use the Bible to attack viciously AGAINST the beliefs of another person. They become indignant that they have all the facts figured out, and they are certain the other person is just wrong.

In doing it that way, we miss the way of Jesus. The only people Jesus was stern with were the religious ones. The ones who KNEW they had it all figured out. Yeah, he called them snakes, white-washed tombs, false shepherds and a den of robbers.

Although I see that he was very patient, they were judged harshly by Jesus because they judged others harshly. They shut the kingdom of God to others by their exclusive attitudes.

But God rejected them and welcomed sinners, tax collectors and prostitutes. That has humbled me over the years, when I considered that God pushed them out and God welcomed those who would not be welcome in many churches.

I dare not come to God with an attitude that I know it all, or have figured out the whole Kingdom plan. So many who quote scripture have done that before and I am now convinced it's an offense to God.

Does he want us to know our Bibles? ABSOLUTELY. Does he want us to exhort one another, even more as we see the day approaching? YES. But we ought to do it with tenderness and respect.

There's a lot of people who hammer away at people based on an English verse translation. I've been like that. Then, coming to God more humbly realized that I made errors in how I spoke, what I presented and indeed what I understood about the Word.

The authority of which Paul speaks, that you have quoted, is an authority based in living in Christ and loving God and his truth. It is a moral authority that comes from a changed life, I believe. It's the authority not merely to claim Christ as savior, but authority that is walked out in the humility that Christ walked in. It's an authority that is sacrificial, gentle, humble, holy and filled with the light of God's presence. It is the authority that Christ has truly become our Lord, and that we walk in the spirit.

Jesus contended FOR his calling. He spoke with authority that utterly transformed the lives of other people when he spoke. Yet, that authority was tender, patient, kind, loving, peace filled, self controlled and forgiving. The people knew he was no ivory tower intellectual nor a hypocritical Pharisee. He spoke truth in love. He lived the word not merely as an example but because he actually believed it (actions are the sum of our true beliefs). He came in Grace and Truth.

My hope for The Church, TheNet, the Body of Christ in the world, is that we all learn to know God and walk in the power of the spirit for an hour before we speak a word for a two seconds. We have done the hour of words with a second of spirit for far too long.

Bless you for reading the whole book of Titus, and not ripping a verse to validate a point. At the same time, we have to see Jesus as the whole living Word and be filled with and love him in his entire context before we start yanking verses around.

We need to start obeying his command to "Love one another as I have loved you." We dare not rip the first part without considering the closer "...as I have loved you."

Peace and blessings to you and all TheNET in the name and power of Jesus Christ,

- Scribe

[Phabs]

Hey Scribe... How you been? Haven’t seen u around in a while.

Let me see if I can clarify, now that's it's been a few days let's see if it still makes sense.

My post was disagreeing with the O.P in the context of the Lakeland revival. Perhaps I need to read it again but when I read it was downplaying the discussions surrounding this revival as mere "foolish and unprofitable arguments" and he also quoted 1 Cor 3, where the church in Corinth was quarreling amongst themselves as to whom to follow.

The discussions that were going on here were not about whom to follow amongst CHRISTIAN leaders, it was not a group saying well "we'll go with Hank Hannegraf" and the other " we'll go with Aturo Azurdia or Paul Washer" it was whether or not this character is a NON-CHRISTIAN, a false prophet who is misleading people. I doubt this was said about either Paul or Appollos in Corinth.


My second point was that in the same book Paul said to stay away from foolish arguments, he spent a great deal of time instructing Titus to teach correct doctrines and how orderly worship must be. None of which were at that revival...

I don't even think I meant to say the O.P misinterpreted the passage, but that it was not considered as a whole.

I agree that the authority that Paul spoke of is all that you described. I also think it has to do with Christ's promise to His disciples (Acts 1:8) amongst other things.

I am not disagreeing with you in any way, I also noted that you weren't disagreeing with me, but pointing something out, I actually echoed the same sentiments in some other posts, we should not become spiritual bullies nor should we beat people with the word, we should act in love at all times, with all that being said, when it's comes to such matters as this let's also not remain silent even in my English verse translation ;-), it's clear that there is a curse on those who call evil good. Isai 5:20


as expected great post...God bless!

[Scribe D'Nucov]

Phabs, I've been great. I hope you are well also.

I did wonder if I was picking up too far down stream on the topic; which you have revealed that I did.

Not being terribly familiar with the Lakeland Rev issue, I will reserve any specific commentary.

I will agree with you whole heartedly as above and simply add this as my position on revivals and other "events".

1. The power of God is in his word. Learn it, Love it, Live it - and you will be a child of the most high with all the power you need to overcome the wiles of the devil.

2. We need to follow the spirit, not events. Sometimes it can be hard to discern between the two; until you learn discernment. If in doubt, trust the Word.

3. We should not despise manifestations of the spirit, nor should we seek after them. When they are the by-product of walking in truth, they are of God. When they are the object of our interest and we seek after them, they are idols and will become tools to of the enemy to mislead us. Christ alone should be our focus.

Walk in truth, walk in the spirit, led Christ be your guide.

Blessings,

- Scribe.

[rix]

As I have been busy helping get a ministry off the ground for the past couple of weeks I was intrigued by this post and know I am called to not be involved in doctrinal divisions. This has hurt so many and has kept me from churches in the past. I know that God has put me into many different denominations and know that somehow He will use me to help heal the divisions that have been occurring for so long. At first reading I am inclined to join you in agreement and as soon as I am able I will be catching up on this and the related posts. In a world of division I know that we as Christians must come together on the basics that God with us, Jesus Christ, clearly taught. I agree that the attacks that our brethren are engaged in are destroying the church and would love to talk with you on how we can come together so that the world can see the love of God instead of turning away those who are seeking. I am finally involved in a ministry where I am hearing those hungry for the truth speak out and share their frustrations with the DEAD churches that are condemning them. I am watching the Matthews and sinners come through the doors daily in the church next to the small town bar because we refuse to cram doctrine down their throats. It is all about the love that God has for us to have entered this wicked world and do instead of talk. So far I am with you brother and I encourage us all to consider all teachings and be lead by the Holy Spirit in discerning the truth among the many false teachings. I now attend many churches as I am lead and prayerfully seek guidance in doing and not just talking. As I began the Internet ministry on yahoo answers, the most vile place to start, I am known as walk your talk. Show me your fruits. I meet too many who are hypocrites and attempt to gently correct with the advice to not take my word but to discern for yourself as we are responsible for what we believe. God bless us all. 500 billion blessings to all who are on this site.

[LT]

My opinion regarding most of this stuff is this.

The majority of the people herre either love the Lord our are seeking Him. Some come here as wolves who came seeking to destroy, and they have been dispelled over several ocassions (These people are no one you know. They were dispelled quickly). Most of us who love the Lord are passionate about what we believe. We want people to be saved and for people to grow. We don't want people to be led astray. If we are saved, we all have the same Holy Spirit living in us, but our humanity gets in the way of true clarity and thus there will be differences. There wil be differences in how we read and understand the Bible. There will be differences as to how we do missions and serve. There will be differences in the manner in which we operate as a local church. There will be cultural differences. Most of these things are not critical. They fall under personal preferences (Rom 14).

At the same time there are critical issues that we must stand up for. Obviously, if someone denies that Jesus is the Son of God I have no connection with them. This is a non-negotiable issue. Let me ask a question. Do people get saved by the Son of God before they understand the first 11 chapters of Genesis, understand sanctification, end times, healing, speaking in or not in tongues, understand the Fruit of the Spirit? Of course they do. Are these important doctrines ... these are in the Bible. They are not important for salvation, but are important for growth. Let me give another example. When a missionary presents the gospel to a tribe for the first time and they accept Jesus, are they saved? Did they have to fully understand the deeper doctrines of the Chrstian faith? Are they saved?

The fact is we are going to disagree with one another on certain issues. That is a fact of life and we need to get over it. We need to understand that not everyone will ever see it quite the same way you do or I do. Can we be headed toward the same mark, understand that none of us have it perfect and have varied views on non-essentials?

We must ask ourselves one last question in regard to this in my opinion. What issues or doctrine rise to a level worth fighting for and over? What issues are truly non-negotiable? The organization I pastor through is The Christian and Missionary Alliance. In the early 1900s a doctrinal issue arose and the group split. The issue was whether or not tongues was evidence of the filling or baptism of the Holy Ghost (Don't go down this rabbit trail, I am illustrating a historical point). Today we have two groups that serve Jesus and love His people. They are the C&MA and the Assemblies of God. God can work even through man's foolishness and yes his arrogance. I have yet to meet anyone who has it correct like me (If you blast me on that last sentence you have no sense of humor). Not one, no not one, has it all correct. Choose your hills to die on when you must, but remember to give freedom, grace and love in all the areas that are gray or simply preferences and move on together on the same quest, and that is to grow in the Lord.

Let me say, if Paul and Barnabas could not live without fighting what chance do you think we have. I trust my maturity level is nowhere near their level and the further we are from maturity and the closer to milk the more we will whine over the non-essentials, because we don't know any better as children. It is a wise manor woman that gets up everyday, looks i the mirror and sees themself for who they are, and that is a child in Christ growing towards maturity, but not yet fully gained.

Lastly, if we look at this site like a church or at least church family, and really that is what it amounts to, there will be issues and problems that we face along the way. Disputes will arise. How we handle these differences speaks volumes about us to each other and to the world. I also recognize that many are being encouraged and helped here. Even the body of Christ goes through growing stages and pains. Do not panic when some choose to leave, this will happen here and in every church ever started. We love our brothers and sisters in the Lord, but they have the freedom to stay or go and must do as the Lord leads them, as too must you and me.

BTW - I put on the armor this morning, so if you must, blast away.

This post represents my humble and often foolish opinion, not because I don't love Jesus, but because I am still a child trying to learn to walk and talk like a man.
LT

[LT]

I would like to add that even last night a brother in the Lord and I had a dispute that made no sense to him or me. It was a weird experience and I can only wonder if Satan did not sow confuison and disunity. He and I worked through the issues and are OK today. We could have gone away mad and hurt, but instead readdressed it and embrace that we are brothers, not enemies, even if there were differences or misunderstandings.

Don't let Satan win a battle in your life.

LT

[LT]

My brother Bob,

My post was not intended as a response to yours that happens to be above mine. It was a response to whole of this forum from my perspective. I placed it last in the string on purpose.

Lord Bless,
LT

[Scribe D'Nucov]

Hey Bob, why would you say "I have no connection" with someone who denies Christ's divinity? I would agree that a person who is born of the Spirit will be led of the spirit to that conclusion and that denial of that is evidence of them not being a born-again believer.

But why say "no connection"? If that is your neighbor, you are connected by community, citizenship and possibly by some family relations. Isn't the point of the parable of the Good Samaritan that Jesus wants us to see that we have "connection" even with those who have false beliefs? (Samaritans were apostates by Old Covenant definition).

I know a Muslim man who denies the divinity of Christ, but is far more gracious and generous than most Christians. My goal is to win him to Christ, not to deny a connection with him. If a person was raised in your own city, under a false belief system, isn't your calling to lovingly lead them to the knowledge of truth?

A lot of scholarly Christians today are like someone sitting in a boat watching their neighbors drown in a flood, preaching about the virtues of the boat and railing about the foolishness of drowning. People may drown more because they are afraid of the guy in the boat, the the fact that they were too foolish to buy a boat before the rainy season.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, just questioning why you said that.