Division within the Body of Christ - PLEASE READ

[Jonathan McLatchie]

Dear all,

I feel the Lord has laid it upon my heart to bring forward this message, which I now share. I quote from Titus 3:9-11 (NIV):-

“But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

It seems to me that over recent days, people in general on this site have been getting involved in the foolish and unprofitable arguments of which Paul warns. Please do not misunderstand me – I am all up for objective discussions, constructive study and critical examination of different interpretations of difficult passages. But I feel many of them here are starting to evolve into quarrels over “pet doctrines” which are secondary in nature and do not bear any real reflection on maturity as a Christian or on the gospel message and salvation. “Petty quarrels” lead to foolishness, but honest and objective discussion leads to wisdom.

Niels Bohr once said in regard to another field “If you think you are understanding quantum physics, you are not understanding quantum physics”, and I think the same is true of Scripture. Granted there are some doctrines which are abundantly clear and which are non-negotiable, but there are other doctrines which really are not worth causing division over. None of us have all the answers – and if one thinks he does then he is deceiving himself, for if we had all the answers we would live whole-heartedly for Christ, which none of us do. In the words of Romans 3:11, “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.” If we claim to be living our entire lives for God then we would have to be without sin, and the Bible makes it very clear that if we claim to be without sin then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8).

People should understand that one of the purposes of the Body of Christ – and indeed this social network – is to seek to serve one another. Instead of sharing together in fellowship and worship, it seems that more and more we are spending time in selfish indulgence, arguing and disputing. If you read 1 Corinthians 1:10-17, you will find further instruction in this respect:-

“I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.”

Here, Paul rebukes the early Corinthian church for their divisions based on loyalties to particular figures. But these divisions always ended in arguments, and the believers were divided by it. This also had profound and far-reaching consequences in other important areas. For instance, those who were wealthy would keep what was theirs to themselves, eating their food before the poorest members showed. This was a complete turn of events from the first Christians in Jerusalem depicted in Acts 2:44.

It seems to me that, as was the case here, we are continuing to be walking in the flesh rather than in the Spirit and we are following our own wills rather than that of the Lord’s.

I refer you to the rest of 1 Corinthians 3, which is of relevance here:-
“Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarrelling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labour. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"; and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile." So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.”

I fear we as the Church – speaking collectively – are beginning to walk more and more according to the fleshly nature rather than that of the Spirit and we are following our own wills and desires rather than that of God’s.

It is my contention that division – where not necessary – is among the first symptoms of spiritual sickness.

As the body of Christ, we must unify the church under one banner - a state where they will be prepared to stand on the authority of the Word of God, whilst prayerfully seeking God's will. Then and only then can there be revival - for how are we to win the spiritual war when there is fighting, bickering, squabbling and throwing of toys out of prams among ourselves? We are on the same team, are we not?

Let there be REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What are people’s thoughts on this?

God bless,

Jonathan

[Greg, TheNET Coordinator]

Jonathan,

I could not have said this better myself. This is EXACTLY my heart! You have correctly captured the spirit and essence - the DNA if you will - of AllAboutGOD.net.

For fundamentalists, this network will never be "doctrinally-sound" enough. For the pentacostals, never "Spirit-led" enough. For the liturgists, never having enough ceremony and tradition. For the independents, never separatist enough.

Having spent many years living in Asia and then coming back here to the U.S.A., I am convinced that one of our cultural sins or strongholds in this country is our love to "be right", to divide, and to live independently of one another. If you look at the people who are arguing and dividing with each other, who is it? It is not the Filipinos, the Indians, or even the Europeans; it is the Americans.

Don't get me wrong, I love my country, but we need to repent of and cast off this divisive spirit (and much more).

Let other sites carry on in rancor and argumentiveness. Let's be different. Let's be revolutionary as you say. Let's live out the Bible verses you posted. Let's show the world what it means to live together in harmony as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus.

Thank you, Jonathan!

[Ron Payne]

I partly disagree Greg,
It is when good men say nothing that they lose their liberties.
Where Liberals take control, abortionists and homosexuals find favour and
Islam openly threatens to rule America, all without a squeak from those who wish to live on both sides of the fence.
Greg, You, Johnathan and I would not have the freedom of speech we have now if it were not for men of yesteryear who, to give us these liberties and the word to read openly in church, did not put their lives on the line. Are we to drop their baton now in order to be politically correct?
What will our children say of us when they are obliged to follow Sharia Law?
As always a Brother in Christ - Ron

[Greg, TheNET Coordinator]

Ron, you are a tremendous man of God! How I appreciate you, brother! You bring me great joy!

By no means do I believe in peace at any price. I don't believe in Ecumenicalism. I don't believe in appeasement (look where that got us prior to WWII). If something is unquestionably contradicting the inspired, infallible Word of God it should be strongly opposed. I hate political correctness, if for no other reason than the phrase originated with the communists. I praise God for the men and women who stood up for, died for or were maimed for our freedoms. I salute them. They are my heros.

All I am saying is that God has given us a lot of allowance and freedom in the Word of God. There are a lot of practices, even in New Testament times where one practice or another was the subject of debate among God-fearing, Christ-loving believers. If anything was not prohibited by the Bible then believers have freedom as long as what they believe and do was for the King and Kingdom and putting others above themselves in love. All throughout the N.T. I hear the admonition, in case of debatable issues, to keep whatever you believe about such things to yourself, to put on love, to forebear with one another, and to live in harmony.

Bible-believing Christians on either side of the "revival" issue both claim scriptural authority for either affirming or condemning it. Since there are well-meaning believers on either side, it appears to me that the Lakeland "revival" falls into a case of debatable practice and therefore the overriding principle of loving one another takes precidence... unless the charges some are levelling (blasphemy, heresy, false teaching, false prophecies, etc.) at those involved in Lakeland can be proven (by courtroom-grade evidence) beyond a reasonable doubt.

[chris rossitto]

God is our judge.Period

[chris rossitto]

Thats what i mean.AGENDA.WE CANT STOP WHAT IS WRITTEN..

[Scribe D'Nucov]

Hey Greg, thanks for sharing your heart and history!

You have stated the case very effectively. Forgive, because I don't spend a lot of time here, but I don't think I have seen you tell your story before and I found it interesting. Especially since you are wearing a cowboy hat in the picture!

You are right: we need to let our "culture" as Christians be a "Christ-centered" culture first, and be Americans second (unless of course someone here is not American).

I have a friend from another part of the world and we were discussing Christianity and his native culture. I was amazed to hear him tell me about his culture, in phrases that I know Jesus used to instruct his disciples. I found it fascinating that his native culture embodied the teachings of Christ better than my own country: when he had never read them.

~Scribe

[Julia - Woman's Group Leader]

J, thanks for your post. As you know, I see the day-to-day workings of AllAboutGOD.net. I see the faithful prayer that goes on here -- the specific prayer for many of you. I love to see people growing and supporting each other through this network. I want this to be a place where people can dialogue in a respectful tone and learn from one another.

J, you are wise for your years, my friend. Thanks for your post.

Serving with you,
~julia

[Ron Payne]

Dear Johnathan,
I understand where you are coming from and what you would like to get across.
These are noble intentions.
But, the discussions over the last two days, were not as you say:

getting involved in the foolish and unprofitable arguments of which Paul warns."

Rather the discussions were in defence against blasphemy and heresy,
that has entered the church under the guise of Revival, where thousands
are being misled.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they
are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

The above is an instruction acted upon by a number of members, myself
included. Personally, I found it strange that being amongst Christians, the
discussion should have persisted as long as it did in order to prove that the
blatant statements made at the so called Revival meetings, were irreligious
and could not be lined up with God’s Word.

But we have been forewarned that false teachings and opposition would arise; we should therefore not be offended, but accept that throughout scripture we receive encouragement to defend the truth. Particularly in these days where the word of
God is being manipulated and purposely misinterpreted.
Should we say nothing, God will hold us responsible.
Your Brother and Friend - Ron

[Julia - Woman's Group Leader]

I realize that your comment is directed to Jonathan, so I still would like him to respond. If I could add one personal bit here...

I personally respect your comment very much, Ron. I want to be the one who stands firm for God's Word and what it teaches. I also want to be the one who can stand firm with a respectful tone and in Christian love. That is where I felt the discussion went astray. (I realize that many of you were respectful in your defense and I appreciate that.)

Sometimes I feel that giving so much emotional energy to a specific debate isn't what God wants from me personally. Maybe I get to passionate! :) That's why my comments are often limited here on the forums. Just my two cents. Love you all,~Julia

[Jonathan McLatchie]

Ron –

I respect your point in regard to the dispute over the Lakeland “revival” and, in fact, agree with your position in that respect. I do, however, think that that particular incident was blown way out of proportion and had a tendency to lead to personal attacks rather than objective discussion. The incident to which you refer represents the last in a long chain of such disputes – most of which were not profitable.

Yesterday, one new member whom I welcomed wrote as follows:
“I am not one for "ecumenical" groups, that is to say, I do not embrace the world's view of the "Christian" umbrella for all the various doctrines... if you know what I mean. Is that the case here?
Also, as a matter of policy or position, is "The Message" a valid "translation"? These are two "biggies" for me. Would you be so kind as to share the position of "TheNET" on this?”

I then explained my own personal position but stressed emphatically that this did not necessarily reflect the view of TheNET. He then effectively said he was leaving because there were certain doctrines he had read in forums that he did not agree with. Causing division over whether one translation is superior to another is not what Christ would have us do. If everybody took the view that they would leave if they read certain secondary doctrines being propagated by those not in any way speaking for AAG, we would have very few members.

There are some very good churches over here, which I very much enjoy attending – but which practice doctrines which I consider to be plain wrong (for instance, infant baptism), but nonetheless I do respect them as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and enjoy the fellowship and Bible teaching they provide.

I have friends who once told me that they would not return to a particular church because they heard someone talk about going down town to buy food for lunch on the Sabbath day.

I referred him to Colossians 2:16-17, in which we read - "Therefore, do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

To a similar effect, Romans 14:5 declares - "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." The above passages would indicate that not working on the Sabbath is a matter of spiritual freedom rather than a command.

I then explained my own position using such Scripture as Acts 15, in which we read of the meeting in Jerusalem where the early apostles met to discuss what aspects of the Mosaic law and Jewish tradition gentile Christians should be commanded to comply with. In verse 19-20, we read of the decision reached - "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."

I explained that I did not believe a resolution to avoid work on the Sabbath was considered of importance to the early gentile Christians, or it would have been included, but then pointed out that we are given freedom in Christ (Galatians 5:1, 2 Corinthians 3:17 etc) and so a Christian is free to abstain from working on the Sabbath if they feel led to so (Romans 14:5 again). Conversely, those who choose to abstain from work on the Sabbath should not judge or ridicule those who do not do likewise. But we who choose not to abstain from working on the Sabbath should not become a stumbling block for those who do choose to do so. To quote 1 Corinthians 8:9, "Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak."

God bless,

Jonathan

[Ron Payne]

Hi Johnathan,
I fully understand what you are saying now and what you said earlier in the day. This morning I simply raised the point that we were not involved in foolish and unprofitable arguments yesterday.
As usual - perhaps I am at fault - but when I make a correction in any discussion I am inclined to drive the point home. Read again my response to you and you will agree I was making a point of correction. But again driving the point home, as to why I felt the way I do.
I also believe that if a controversial subject is opened for discussion, then if one can't stand the heat in the kitchen don't come in with a counter point. Rather stay out. I am not referring to you here.

Yesterday the discussion was controversial but in total agreement up to the time, when another entered the "Kitchen" and cut across the discussion by saying he believed that Todd Bentley was correct and the lakeland "debacle" was really a God blessed revival. I immediately confronted him and as usual pressed the point home personally. To name him was not a terrible thing, as everyone had read his comments anyway..

Finally, we would not be where we are now, if today no one went back into yesterday's "Kitchen" and revitilised the subject from a different angle.

I hold a number of people here in high respect and always look out for their work in order to sit back and enjoy the "fruit" that was offered. LT, Stew, Greg, Carla, Jack and Donna, Melissa and yourself are the ones I speak of. As I have said before, I marvel that we have so few members out of the hundreds who particpate.

Finally I think that possibly 98% of my participation here has been
given with complete consideration for the recipient. Sometimes part of that 98% gets straight to the point in order to show where the problem really lies rather than give pleasent verses etc. The other 2 % as we have found out can be somewhat abrasive. - I'm Human.

The Lord Bless Us all - Your brother and friend Ron.

[Jonathan McLatchie]

Hi Ron,

I guess I am guilty of the same on occasion. When someone makes an assertion which I dispute I have a tendency to switch into “debating mode” to drive the point home, which I probably shouldn’t do as a Christian – but rather apply the 1 Peter 3:15 principle.

I do believe Jack has left AAG again, which is a real shame – he will be greatly missed. His contribution here on TheNet was invaluable and I am convinced our network will be but a shadow of its former self without him.

Incidentally, how many of the 1528 members do you estimate are active?

Jonathan